Upcoming Major Changes
Now that the Design Contests beta is starting to stabilize, I thought that I would write a post about some of the plans we have for the near future. Designers in particular should read on…
The first thing on our horizon is revising the process through which Contest Holders provide feedback. Sometimes Contest Holders have to give feedback to hundreds of entries which can require several hours of work each day the contest runs.
This ultimately results in one of two outcomes:
- Either the Contest Holder gives minimal feedback on lots of entries, even the ones they aren’t at all interested in, and at the risk of not wanting to offend anyone they string along Designers who are unlikely to win the prize, OR
- They are simply daunted by the task and end up giving give no feedback at all, which generally leads to disgruntled designers and eventually an abandoned contest.
Let’s face it, we realize designers love getting feedback, but as a designer would you rather waste your time refining a design that has no chance of winning, or move onto a new contest?
And if Contest Holders are required to spend hours and hours of their time every day keeping up with their feedback requirements it will eventually kill contests - they simply won’t bother coming back.
In my mind, an ideal system is one which lets Designers know quickly whether they have a chance of winning (so they don’t waste anymore time on their design) and one which minimizes work for the Contest Holder, whilst still encouraging them to provide feedback for the designs they are interested in.
We’re currently considering a proposal whereby Contest Holders add designs they want to take further to a shortlist. The shortlist would be limited to 5 spots in total. Once the contest ends, the Contest Holder then works with the designers on the shortlist to put the finishing touches on their design, providing detailed feedback for each. (Amendment: To clarify, a winner would still be selected from this shortlist and that winner would be given the full prize)
So as a designer if your design is not shortlisted, you’re no longer in the contest. And there would be no requirement for the contest holder to provide individual feedback on any entries not shortlisted.
There is one catch that I think you’ll appreciate. Once the contest holder decides to shortlist, they are obligated to award a prize to someone on the shortlist. We will talk later about how we’re going to enforce payment of that prize, but for now we’re more interested in your thoughts on this.
SitePoint Contests has grown out of our forums and a strong community, so above all we value your feedback, what do you think of this revised process?
September 20th, 2007 at 5:43 pm 1
Everything sounded great until I came to the one catch at the bottom. I understand why you want to make sure every designer that is shortlisted is paid. This way they all get at least some prize money for their efforts, which in itself is great ofcourse.
But, I guess this will make the amount that someone gets when he/she actually wins the contest much lower (because instead of adding *extra* money for the runner ups, the contest holders will probably just divide the total amount available between the runnerups and the winner.) And it’s usually the winner who will be doing the bulk of the work afterwards, certainly in the coded contests. So I’m not sure that the runnerups being paid on every contest is a great idea. Ofcourse it’s great for the runner ups, but is it really fair to the contest winners?
September 20th, 2007 at 5:53 pm 2
I like the idea of having a list of entries that are eligible for winning, but I wouldn’t say they’d need to be paid. Let the winner have all the prize money.
September 20th, 2007 at 5:55 pm 3
Remco, thanks for the feedback. Our intention was that the winner would still be awarded the entire prize. It would only be split between entrants if the contest holder couldn’t decide on a winner.
Being on the shortlist doesn’t guarantee that ALL entrants will be paid, it just guarantees that the prize money will be awarded.
September 20th, 2007 at 7:48 pm 4
I think this is a step in the right direction definitely. ( I didn’t misunderstand the intent that there was to be only one winner chosen from the shortlist
So often, you are provided feedback that makes you feel that you have a good chance and you go along and make change after requested change, only to find that the entry chosen was totally in a different direction to what was asked for in the brief… so working in this way ensures that everybody is on the same page.
Bring it on!
Nadia
September 20th, 2007 at 8:57 pm 5
I agree with NadiaP. I am so glad Sitepoint is moving in this direction. I haven’t been entering contest long and lately about 1 out of 3 of the contest I have entered are either canceled, abandoned, or still waiting for CH to pick a winner (after weeks and weeks). Plus like NadiaP, after countless hours and days of working on a design with positive feedback from CH, the entry design chosen was a complete opposite of the brief. If the CH decides to change directions, it would be nice to have those comments provided to all entries, not by private email.
Thanks a bunch.
Sheree
September 20th, 2007 at 11:31 pm 6
Two thumbs up from me.
The recent improvements are great, and these proposed changes will make it even better.
September 21st, 2007 at 2:59 am 7
I agree with all the above, but how about a simple thanks for the entrants that are not on the shortlist.. something automated and generic. You know it makes you feel better.
September 21st, 2007 at 3:14 am 8
I think the proposed changes sound great!
September 21st, 2007 at 7:06 am 9
Everything sounds awesome and I can’t wait for it to be in place if it all works out!
September 21st, 2007 at 10:15 am 10
I’m afraid I have to go against the majority here regarding the shortlist. As a CH, I have had numerous instances where I have given feedback to a designer that the design needs LOTS of work, and they listen, resulting in a winner. For this reason, I don’t like the shortlist idea and favor a rating system of 1-5 or 1-10. This leaves room for someone to come back from the back of the pack.
This is just an alternate idea. I suppose if I could bump someone form the short list to make room for another, that would work too. I kind of like a rating system for feedback, though. Ultimately, it’s really up to the contest holder to give good feedback to the designers!
September 21st, 2007 at 11:47 am 11
This changes sound great!
Nevertheless, altough i think a shortlist is a good idea, i believe that only 5 spots can limit excessively a contest!
September 21st, 2007 at 1:08 pm 12
I like the idea of shortlist , however i dislike the fact that its becoming obligatory. - i think that the best thing as a designer is to fight to reach the CONTEST HOLDERS ATTENTION .
the reason y i said that is because .. in most big contests ..often the final product is similar to unchosen versions submitted by various designers.
So as a designer..staying in sitepoints contest would no longer interest me after lets say 4-5 months…
*******
I think that one of the things that you would need to get things moving the right direction wold be to ensure that contest holders doesn’t abandon contest and hire lower pay designer to reproduce work that they aren’t willing to pay at prices that they posted.
Cheers,
Ronnie
September 21st, 2007 at 3:12 pm 13
I’m with Joey here, I think a rating system 1-10 would be the way to go, and maybe combine it with the shortlist idea at the end of the contest: Make it so that when there’s 1 or 2 days left in the contest the CH can make his 5 or 3 top designs shortlist to focus on those designs for a couple of days.
September 21st, 2007 at 5:28 pm 14
Personally, I’m in favor of a shortlist limit higher than 5 — but it’s the process that’s important, the limit is arbitrary and we can increase it if needed.
September 21st, 2007 at 7:19 pm 15
The reason that contests are abandonded doens’t have anything to do with the feedback itself.
It’s the mentality from them and the cheap prices. It’s too easy to walk away after a contest.
Some $100 contest are better then the top ones because of the feedback.
So a shorlist wouldn’t work because now they wait till the end and don’t make a shorlist at all.
i don’t see a real change in this. It’s still the CH that can make or brake the contest.
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:19 am 16
True, Rambler001 on the CH - I think the feedback/rating system will help with that. You’ll have an indication of who sticks with the contests and who doesn’t. SP, you have your work cut out for you
There don’t seam to be any easy answers here.
September 22nd, 2007 at 12:37 am 17
I do not like the rating system proposed by Joey.
Matt, you did not say if new entries could replace entires already in the
shortlist. Just keeping the top 5 favorites tends to show the designers which way the CH is leaning on what they want.
This would help others that have already been eliminated, they could continue to work on their designs by 1. knowing that they still have a chance to move into the faves, 2. work on their designs to better fit what the CH wants
September 22nd, 2007 at 3:42 am 18
Im waiting for a spanish version of the SitePoint contest site. Thast will be really usefull
September 22nd, 2007 at 4:32 am 19
I have a suggestion to add to this pool of thought on the feedback issue;
Add check boxes that makes it easier for the host when looking at designs.
(Example)
[ ] Sorry, not what we are looking for at this time.
[ ] We like this so far, stay tuned on the contest for further updates.
[ ] We think this design is good but needs more work, see further comment
below.
You add this sort of system and have the comment box available and this
way it is made less time consuming on the host. If the host still doesn’t
give feedback after a couple days the system suspends it till they do.
In the end with this addition it makes it less an issue of time on the host
part but their own choice of following the rules and working for a design
that they want represent them officially,
~Bob
September 22nd, 2007 at 5:25 am 20
I like both ideas of a shortlist and easier checkpoint-style feedback possibilities for contest holders.
September 22nd, 2007 at 6:07 am 21
I feel that if someone wants to have the opportunity to have hundreds of designers work on their logo before they pay, they should at least acknowledge each designer and his/her efforts. Frankly, it makes me sick to hear the new suggestion of making it easier for CH’s to simply disregard designs.
September 22nd, 2007 at 6:13 am 22
Im all for anything that will keep a contest from hitting a brick wall.The suggestions sound good to me and it will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
also..
The time frame of 10 days needs to be taken away from the logo contests. I think the longer the contests run the more chance it has of going nowhere. The feedback stops coming in as the designs pile up. 90 percent of the time a contest holder will find a design with in 5 days, from 100 + entries that accumulate in such a short time.
September 22nd, 2007 at 6:18 am 23
to zachoverholser.
What you say also makes sense. But look at it this way. Its only going to get worse the way it stands now. It seems contests are getting out of hand. So if there is a way to eliminate entries that the CH does not like, without having to hurt someones feelings it should be implimented. It bothers me more to make stuff and have someone tell me its good, when they dont mean it. Just do away with me!
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:30 am 24
Great direction. Loved it until I read “once the contest ends”. Could you clarify? I’ve been on the sidelines a long time. Won a few and wasted a ton more. Having a contest after the contest with no clock ticking between those five will in my mind really drag things out and I believe give an added window for contest holders to abandon. However if you shorten the contest period you’d be on to something. Say give a contest holder one week contests with the option by a click to extend another 3-5 days or go into a shortlist period At any rate the contest ending should indicate a winner not another limitless period of time but besides that great idea.
September 22nd, 2007 at 8:51 am 25
Thanks for all the feedback guys!
We will definitely look into supplementing the current feedback system with a rating system or a checkbox system with pre-defined answers. In my mind that is complementary to the shortlist.
I think the idea of reducing contests down to 3-5 is a good one, I agree that the shorter contests seem to have a better outcome. I would like to see a 3 day pre-shortlist phase in which the Contest Holder provides some feedback, then after that phase ends selects 5 designers to be on the shortlist and continue to work with those designers for another 2 days before selecting a winner.
What I really like about the shortlist proposal is the fact that adding designers to the shortlist is an agreement from the CH that they will pay out the prize they promised. At least with this agreement we can enforce it, as it stands all we can do is encourage contest holders not to abandon contests.
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:11 am 26
Sounds good and glad to have added to the brain tank here. I could not
agree more with you Lachlan. These will get the contest back on track
once implemented. You have my support on this as I look forward to the
future of here.
~Bob
September 22nd, 2007 at 3:21 pm 27
I agree with all that Lachlan mentioned in his post (25). The shortened contests always seem to have a winner with lots of feedback because it appears the CH really does want the design completed asap.
The checkbox idea is also a good one, it saves the CH from giving too much feedback even though the entry isn’t what they are after.
All in all, great suggestions.
Any idea of when we could see this being implemented?
September 22nd, 2007 at 10:21 pm 28
From the current contests, it does look like leaving feedback is a very time consuming job. I like the way contest holders can currently eliminate a designs. From a CH point of view, I think it’s a good idea to create a shortlist and that way you get a better finished product, however in fairness to everyone I think CH’s should still be encourage to provide feedback to designers who have an outside chance, just in case they have been led down the wrong path.
September 23rd, 2007 at 1:15 am 29
I wholeheartedly agree to the shortlisting and reduced timelines along with pre-defined feedback options. All great suggestions
However, I’m a little confused…perhaps I’m missing something!
I read Lachlan’s first post over and over againg to figure out WHERE I missed out the bit about sharing the prize money equally amongst shortlisted designers. Well…I didn’t find any! I’d like to assume this arrangemnent is in the event that the CH CANNOT arrive at a winning design or designer. Do correct me if I’m wrong! Cos otherwise the whole purpose of having a CONTEST would be defeated and would give the word “CONTEST” a whole new meaning…what with 3-5 winners!
Just my two bit!
September 23rd, 2007 at 1:52 am 30
I am in the process of my first contest - as a contest holder. I was overwhelmed (in a good way) by the number of entries to my contest and the wealth of high quality submissions. So far, I have received 75 entries in less than 48 hours. I am committed to offering feedback on every submission but wish there was an easier and faster way to do it.
One suggestion - after entering a comment/feedback, it would be helpful for me if I was taken right back to the list of submissions, rather than refreshing the comment page. That would save me a click back to the full list when I’m ready to move on to feedback for another design.
Also, I do like the idea of shortlisting, but 5 might be too few. I’m with the folks who think 10 is good … but then I would hate to have to bump one off that list if there were actually 11 that I wanted to short list. Call me indecisive, but …
One thing I would fine extremely helpful would be a way for me, the CH, to filter the entire list of submissions. When I get down to making my final decision, I will be wading through more than 75 submissions - and I would hate to lose track of one or overlook one that I intended to review with my favorites. If there was a way to tag favorites as I reviewed them, creating a “summary” page of my specific favorites, that would be EXTREMELY helpful.
Thanks very much though - I’m very impressed with this contest functionality as a whole and have already recommended it to one of my clients who is in search of a logo for her new company.
September 23rd, 2007 at 3:48 pm 31
@bombardier bob, I thought of that too bob, I think that would work well.
September 24th, 2007 at 3:58 am 32
Does this quote mean you the “user” are not able to post any more designs for the contest?
“So as a designer if your design is not shortlisted, you’re no longer in the contest.”
Designers have a lot of different ideas, and to post one and for them not like it, then being not allowed to post anymore would be a terrible idea.
September 24th, 2007 at 4:46 am 33
fantastic update…the shortlist idea is awesome:)
I especially like that the prize must be paid …….
September 24th, 2007 at 7:29 pm 34
can’t you make a rule or something when CH doesn’t choose one or abandon the contest some extra money must be paid?
now it is $20 i believe but when abandoned CH must pay $50 extra to sitepoint.
I don’t care that it would go to sitepoint, but we as designers would end up with better contests and filter bad CH’s on forehand.
September 25th, 2007 at 1:20 am 35
As Popcorned23 asked in comment 32, I would like to point out that I mentioned in comment 17 that I think that the shortlist should be dynamic and if you are bounced from it, you can still get back on it with a modification.
What I’m proposing is to shorten the contests with the shortlist (SL) being created by the 5th day. The remaining designers can still submit entries for 2 days and they can be placed into the SL, replacing one of the current SL entries. All new entries are stopped at 7 days and the only submissions accepted are designers that have already occupied a spot in the SL and they are also the only ones that can be placed back into the SL
Then the contest ends by the 10th day.
September 25th, 2007 at 4:37 am 36
These all sound cool including my idea added however, one issue is being
skipped and that is the hosts taking a week after the contest is over to decide
a winner. On my short list alone I have 6 contest pushing now a week past
the ending with no news on a winner or anything. This issue is another nasty
one that truly needs some attention on here.
~Bob
September 25th, 2007 at 6:32 am 37
I don’t really like the idea of a shortlist. I’d go for the ratings system instead. I think people deserve a second chance.
September 25th, 2007 at 10:22 am 38
What do you do about contest holders who choose you as the winner and don’t pay? It’s happened to me.
September 25th, 2007 at 12:48 pm 39
For the reason that DSLy9ons points out, I believe there should be an button/feedback/ option at the end of the contest that allows both CH and entrant to submit a comment that says ‘payment received - files’ sent.
If I’ve won a contest I do this as a courtesy (or have in most cases
because it allows others that have followed the contest or are looking at the profile of the CH or entrant - that vouches for their credibility.
I also agree with Bob, about the length of time it takes for a contest to be considered ‘won’. However, with some of the web page designs, the decision is up to a ‘board’ not just an individual and that often times causes a delay.
A shortening of all contests in general is a better option in my opinion. 9 days for a contest, with a week maybe of posts saying that we will be chosing soon, only to have another week+ before a winner is announced is really stretching it !
September 26th, 2007 at 6:39 am 40
Having just gone through my first contest, I think the ‘easier feedback’ option would be beneficial for most new users. I found it very hard to provide feedback on entries I wasn’t that keen on. Do I just say ‘thanks but no thanks’ or try and provide constructive criticism on a design that is to all intents and purposes very creative and well done, but not to my tastes? I liked all of the designs (with the odd exception) and was surprised with the outcome (it was a very late entry and not what I had in mind when I posted the brief). For me, I don’t think the shortlist would work. It would be far better to have a rating system - rate each design on a 1-5 rating and allow other people to see what styles you are leaning towards and adjust accordingly. In effect you are shortlisting, without limiting contest entry to the first few people who resonate.
September 27th, 2007 at 4:04 pm 41
I don’t know if this is a good place to bring this up, but here goes. I just received a message from a contest holder which is the following–
Good to hear, I’ve noticed that only a few people do the T-shirt designs - why does the site limit the prize to $100? Seems like this is as much or more work than the logo contest. Just seemed wierd to me.
Mike
And I agree. why is it that the T-shirt design contests are only limited to a hundred dollars while any other logo contest can have a higher prize?
September 27th, 2007 at 4:13 pm 42
wiseguy009: There is no limit for any categories. Have you had problems creating T-Shirt design contests with higher prizes? I couldn’t reproduce the problem.
September 27th, 2007 at 5:29 pm 43
I think as it is now and as you plan it, contests are taking care more of CH than designers, and this is not fair.
SitePoint is a serious place, but design contests are not up to those standards and I think you should change that, for SitePoint’s own sake and for people to take this profession seriously.
I agree with Rambler001 and zachoverholser: CH should not have the right to abandon design contests: it is too easy and extremely disrespectful of the amount of time spent working by designers.
The Guidelines states that designers love getting feedback; it is more than that: we NEED feedback to know which are the tastes and likes of CH and we simply want to have some consideration for our work: apart from one winner, we’re working for free here… When you have worked for free for 10 hours, the minimum you expect is not even to hear you are a genious but a mere thank you…
In that regard, I think that Guidelines should remember CH that they’ll have 5 to 30 people working for them, and they will have to pay only one, and at a very low rate compared to market prices… Where in the real world do you find that kind of conditions? So that implies also from CH a minimum efforts in compensation, like providing feedback… Granted, it takes time, but the money they give is still very low, so that needs an effort form CH in compensation. BombardierBob’s proposal seems a good idea to help CH in that respect.
Like Popcorned23 and Krazy3, I think you should give a second chance to designers who come with a different idea in one contest, also for CH’s sake, like dgtlrose pointed out. I think the rating system is smarter to anybody, CH and designers alike.
What I think is that raise the minimum prices and making it compulsory to pay it would considerably raise the seriousness of CH and the quality of contest…
September 27th, 2007 at 6:22 pm 44
I think I should clarify that we will absolutely be making it easier to provide feedback via a star system, which will be something that the CH can use at any time, but the idea of the shortlist is that at the end of the first half of the contest the CH chooses 5 shortlisted designers to keep working with in the second half.
In the second phase of the contest the shortlisted designers will work more closely with the contest holder, through the more verbose current feedback mechanism, resulting in one of the shortlisted designers being selected as the winner at the end of the second half of the contest. I would hope that the whole process would take about 4-6 days, as this seems the best timeframe for current contests.
XPInternet:
I understand that its frustrating to not get feedback, but these contests need to be manageable for Contest Holders, otherwise your market will disappear!
We are trying to build a balanced ecology that attracts Contest Holders who write good briefs and work with designers for a good outcome for both parties, whilst at the same time rewarding excellent designers. For this to be scalable to thousands of designers, the process needs to minimize time required from both parties. For contest holders this means making feedback easier, and for designers it means making it clear as quickly as possible whether they have a chance at the prize.
September 27th, 2007 at 10:41 pm 45
Hi Lachlan and thanks for your clarification.
As a matter of fact, I think that on the “manageability” issue, you have come to a good solution that will improve the working of design contests.
And I think that the obligation to declare a winner among the shortlist is a good step towards getting rid of CH who completely disrespect the work - for free - of designers.
But to be frank - please do not take offense - I do not know which market you are talking about: I do contests to compare with other designers and improve my skills, not to earn money. Here professionals charge € 500 at minimum to start working on a logo and I have a client who paid somebody (not me!) € 4,000 for a tiny logo consisting of 3 letters and an upside down triangle! So you understand that SitePoint contests are a good way to learn and improve, share and compare, but not to make a living, especially since there’s only one designer paid among all those who take part in the contest!
I thank SitePoint all the same for setting up those contests and I thank you for your work, but for the reasons I gave, not to make a living… So I am not talking about money here, but simply respect for the work. You cannot allow CH to walk away easily when 30 designers have spent several hours working and have those designers come back happily at a SitePoint contest… That’s all I am saying.
So if you want these contests to be a win-win for the 3 parties (CH, designers AND SitePoint), just do not forget that you also have to attract designers…
September 28th, 2007 at 9:49 am 46
I haven’t entered a contest yet but am considering doing so. I agree with XPInternet that compared to market prices the Contest Holders are getting an exceptional deal with so many people working for them and should give feedback and treat contestants with courtesy.
I didn’t see a response to the person who said he/she hadn’t been paid after winning a contest. Does this happen often? Should Contest Holders have to leave a credit card number with SitePoint in order to guarantee payment for work that was done by the winner?
September 28th, 2007 at 10:12 am 47
We certainly have plans for improving the payment system, however at this stage I can’t say more as we are still working out the legalities. Rest assured that we have on the horizon a system that ensures that payments go through us so we can ensure that competition winners always get the prize money they have won. In the meantime, if you have won a contest and not been payed the prize you are entitled, please report the contest holder to us as non-paying.
Thanks for all your feedback guys, I am glad all of you are as passionate as I am about building a better Contests! Its fantastic to see such a wide and varied range of views.
September 28th, 2007 at 10:50 pm 48
Hi guys and gals,
I dont think shorlists will make any difference on the out come of the contest, in some CH that are willing to choose a winner maybe a big help, but for those who are “scammers”, it will still result to an abandoned contest.
A simple graying of your design, as a designer will know that your design is on the right track or not making it as a contender. And for me, its fair enough with or with any feedbacks.
The real problem here is to how to prevent abandoned contest. Making a shortlist will provide exeptional guide of feedback but eventually if that CH intends to abandoned it in the first place he was intending it at the beggining, he can, anytime he wants leaving the 5 shortlisted contestant more heart broken.
For now Sitepoint ask for $20 before anyone can create any kind of contest.
Here’s my thoughts, if Sitepoint ask for $20 plus the PRIZE MONEY for the contest the CH will be making, before he can create that particular contest, gives us designers the assurance that the CH will finish the contest.And for how much the CH pays Sitepoint in advance, it is the amount limit he can give as prize range. But you can make an exemption for the CHs that have run multiple contest here at Sitepoint before, like Joey(imagineinternet), who runs great contests here. I think you can ask the advance payment to the beginner CH who has no history of previous contests held. And by the time they establish multiple successfull contest here at Sitepoint, you can exemp that CH to pay in advance.
When a scenario of having no winner was chosen, they can easily refund it from Sitepoint. But Sitepoint must investigate first wether the CH told a certain contestant that he/she is on the right track or he somehow really likes his/her design, i think CH is required to pay respect to that designer and gives a consolation.
With this system, you can also solve the problem regarding some contest exist in other designing contest site and here at sitepoint simultaneous. but with different prize money.
And one more thing, the payment of the designer will be centralized. I have encountered contest that i really want to join and think have the winning idea for that contest but can’t join it because of some payment method problem. When ever other payment method is required, Sitepoint can automatically deduct the fee on the prize it self.
Hope this helps to make Sitepoint better.
September 28th, 2007 at 10:53 pm 49
Uhmmm feedback through a star system doesn’t tell me a thing for design wise is concern. With my suggestion of check box feedback system that does give more back to the designer and if the host needs to give more feedback they can in the comment box as well. The Star System only says to other
designer look at me and copy my design if it has 5 stars next to it. If you truly hard up on the star system make it like ebays feedback star system where there are up to 5 questions and each has 5 stars next to them. (example)
* * * * * General over all design look and feel.
* * * * * Overall Color theme
* * * * Font/text Used
* * * * * Icon/s used
* * * * * Design fits the purpose needed.
If you just use 5 stars and not a layered system of stars that doesn’t truly say anything about the design or the work. Designers need a way to know if the colors, fonts, icon, and layout are in the right direction. If you over simplify this it will cause further confusion to the designer. With my suggestions it is easy still for the host and the design gets more back in the end then a simple 5 stars of like or dislike.
~Bob
September 28th, 2007 at 11:09 pm 50
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but instead of paying SitePoint at the beginning, you would instead pay a deposit and then only if you choose a winner will you get your deposit back. If the CH broke the rules or never chose a winner, the deposit would be SitePoints.
But seeing this is a business and they hate to give money back I doubt they’ll consider it.
September 29th, 2007 at 2:30 am 51
But the deposit being kept by Sitepoint if a contest is abandoned doesn’t help the designers though.
Craycalvin and I were in a recent contest that was receiving feedback quite regularly and the feedback was acted upon by the designer. There was a delay in a winner being announced as the ‘client was viewing the designs’.
Turns out that after all the work by the designers to follow the brief and the feedback given, the contest was abandoned because the ‘client had decided to go in a different direction’……
This was in no way due to the fact that the designers weren’t good enough which is one way to get out of a contest - so who exactly should be responsible for a contest ending in this way? Should the CH be made to chose a design regardless and award a prize - I believe so, even if it is a consolation prize. If Sitepoint were holding the prize money - then there would be a good outcome for the designer who would get paid at least in part for the work they’ve put into into their designs.
September 29th, 2007 at 3:48 am 52
Exactly my point Nadia P. If the CH ends up without choosing a winner, Sitepoint will automatically review all feedbacks and from there, decide the best designer for that contest and atleast if not the whole prize, a consolation maybe half of it will be awarded. then the other half can be refunded by the CH himself.
Regarding to
September 29th, 2007 at 4:06 am 53
Ok, is the new system being installed today or is the contest page offline?
~Bob
September 29th, 2007 at 5:53 pm 54
i think it sounds good, too…
September 29th, 2007 at 6:04 pm 55
I am often a CH and sometimes only one or 2-4 designers start working on it, if we don’t like the designs i cancel the contest and tell the designers that it just wassent good enought. If i didn’t have a chance to cancel the contest and would be forced to pick a winner and pay for a design i can’t use for anything, then i would stop using sitepoint and start using one of the other design networks. Because you shouldn’t be able to win a contest if the contest holder don’t like what you have made.. It’s as simple as that, and it works like that in the real life too,, if your stuff just isent good enough, then you won’t get paid.
September 29th, 2007 at 9:21 pm 56
Hi Martin,
Its true that CH dont need to pay a designer for a logo that is not good enough for him. Thats why, if a contest was abandoned, the Sitepoint must review all of its feedback the CH has given to all entrants and see if that particular holder from the beginning told every designers that “your design is not suited for us” or other same meaning statement…and no single feedback saying “its very nice, I like it” or something like that. Then the CH can refund his deposits full.
But if the CH want to award a designer a consolation prize for its hard work, its up to the CH really.
But when this CH abandon a contest and Sitepoint saw a feedback telling a designer that he likes it or his design is close to what they are looking for, then thats the time Sitepoint will discuss to the CH about refunding their deposit.
BTW Martin, I have joined some contest even with only $100 at stakes, but have 150+ entries received and with high standard designs. My individual purpose why i join that contest too and post 10 entries on it, coz i know that CH from the start will finish and choose a winner at the end. For me, its better to work hard and earn less than nothing.
Try to finish a contest and award a winner then by the next time you make a contest here at sitepoint, you can make your previous successfull contest as a reference simply by adding it in brief.
September 29th, 2007 at 11:59 pm 57
To Martin: “it works like that in the real life too,, if your stuff just isent good enough, then you won’t get paid.”
Really?
When you go to a baker’s and do not like his bread, you get a refund? When you buy a car and are disappointed by the performances, they take it back? When you buy a house and find it not functional, you can have your money back? I am not living in this beautiful world…
CH have got 5 - 30 designers working for their good, and pay only one, at a low rate compared to the market: why a contest should be risk-free for CHs and not for designers? Do you call that fair for both parties?
September 30th, 2007 at 4:56 pm 58
Martin:
Do you tell the entrants at the time of their submission that the entry isn’t good enough and what they should do to improve the design?
Do you point them in the right direction? Does the description in your brief give enough information for the designer to come up with a concept?
More importantly: Is the money you are awarding for the prize good enough to attract the top designers?
The Contest Holder also has to realise that they have responsibility in guiding the contestants towards what they are after. We are not mind readers and can only go by the feedback given.
Have a look at some of the contests that offer more than the basic prize money…. you’ll see that these contests attract many of the top designers and will receive more than 2-4 entries - could this be why you are not attracting more entries……….. something to think about maybe
October 1st, 2007 at 1:39 am 59
Sounds like Martin is the type that wants a design yesterday and don’t care
about the rules and guidelines and feels if the designs are not good, bye.
He is what hurts this industry cause they build a company off outsourcing
without truly knowing the business industry. If you go to any major design
firm they work hand in hand with the designer and client and feedback is
constant. Hell look at American Chopper with the OCC they deal with the
clients all the time to get their feedback. A client will not buy what they do
not like but the feedback is a guideline to all designers period. Get with the
program Martin and not against it.
~Bob
October 1st, 2007 at 11:43 pm 60
How many of you designers think that design firms use us as “slaves” by proxy
to get designs out to their clients?
I know I’ve seen this before and I do not think it is right for them, as designers, to farm out the work and pay the designers pittance and charge their clients a hell of a lot more.
Is there anything that could be done to keep this from happening?
AFA an escrow system is concerned, can’t SP use PayPal as the intermediary? PayPal has a system that can be used for this purpose.
October 2nd, 2007 at 1:41 am 61
As a rather new CH on Sitepoint I had some suggestions that might save time on both sides.
For instance it would be really convenient if there was a way to see all the entries a specific designer submitted so far to any Sitepoint contest. All designers have a personal style and set of skills and this way CHs would be able to determine in a fast way if a certain designer has the right skills and style for the job. If not, (s)he can be eliminated immediately.
Another suggestion is something along the line of what Elance is offering too. Being able to invite certain designers for your contest. If there are some designers you really like because of their style, skills or way they work, you could send them an automated message to invite them to participate. Ok, you can do that with a PM as well, but takes much more time then just clicking a button.
Just my 50cent.
As for the rest, great service this Sitepoint Contests!
October 2nd, 2007 at 4:31 am 62
five is so much imho
three would be enough
and the idea of “enforcing” the contest holder to pay extra money or to have a sum of the deducted from the winner prize money is not very appealing
instead why don’t you award the 2nd and the 3rd runners up sitepoint credits or something
October 2nd, 2007 at 4:35 am 63
and one more thing
maybe an easier feedback system will be better
for example…..the feedback form include five radio buttons which let the contest holder rate the entry from 1 to 5….and then we have this two list…..one for the cons and one for the pros of the design….the cons one for example include “bad color choice, bad layout, etc etc etc” and the cons include “nice colors, nice layout…etc”…..and then it is up to the user to write down a detailed feedback in a text box
October 2nd, 2007 at 4:51 am 64
where the hell is ended/close pojects in “my contest”?????
i cant access them and see who’s winning, or delete my entries.
October 2nd, 2007 at 8:32 am 65
Thanks for all the feedback guys, I am going to close this for comments now.
February 13th, 2008 at 9:16 am 66
[…] up front from contest holders - in other words reducing the risk for designers. This combined with some changes to the way we run design contests, seemed like it would make things a lot […]